A comment that I felt needed to be brought to the forefront, as sometimes these things get lost as the comment chains get longer (plus I wanted to make sure it was read since sometimes people don’t always return to the comment chain to read subsequent posts):

USMCwife909, you’re not reading my comments very carefully because you’re only interested in telling me why I’m wrong.  I clearly stated that, and I quote my own words for the refreshment of your memory:

       It seems to me that James Madison, while speaking against establishment of religion by law, still managed to convey a missionary heart.  A heart that firmly believed in God and His commandments, but believed that each man must come to know God of his own free will

I am curious that you claim to be Christian, but then you say:

       Christians have a desperate need for some reason to claim our nation’s fathers as their own.

If you are Christian, wouldn’t you be part of that group?  Or are there two sets of Christians, and you belong to the open-minded, live and let live set?  I hate to tell you this, but no matter how you try to twist the words of many of the founders of our nation (Please note, I said MANY, not all.  Do not try to twist my words and say that I believe that ALL good men that helped formed our nation were Christian or think exactly as I do.  I NEVER said that.), this nation was founded on Christian principles, based on their very words.  They had a balanced view — the best foundation for our nation is one of Christian principles, but because they held the free will that God gave each and every man so precious, they promised to never establish a national religion.  It’s so obvious what Madison said — he believed in the light of Christianity, the existence of false religions (directly in conflict with modern day liberals who profess “god, whatever your concept of him or her may be”), and man’s free will to accept or reject the light of Christianity.  Yes, he was speaking against established state religion — but he was not denying his faith in doing so.

It’s a shame that you and so many others who profess to be Christian (and yet demonstrate so differently with your words and actions) twist the words of those who are dead and can’t speak for themselves.  And I am amused that you set yourself up as an authority — “the quote cannot be found in any of Madison’s original writings.”  Perhaps you just haven’t run across the document that contains it?  Why should I believe you?  I’m not going to bore my other readers with lengthy endnotes from Federer’s encyclopedia — I trust the volume and the copious amounts of research that went into it, and anyone who has questions regarding its veracity can research that on their own.

3 thoughts on “

  1. I read your words completely and carefully and I’m fully aware of what you said. Perhaps you’re missing MY point because you’re too busy being defensive. I apologize if I’ve made you feel that you must be. I am not arguing that the country was founded on Christian principles. I’m arguing the insinuation that this country was founded STRICTLY on Christian principles and was set up as a Christian nation. Most of the founding fathers found value in aspects of Christianity, as well as many many many other religions and natural law. Most of them held the belief that the Bible was a good moral guide, but did not believe it literally, and used it in combination with Unitarian and other religions to form their personal moral code. Madison, in particular, did not believe in the Christian idea of God and certainly didn’t believe the commandments were laws handed down from God. Christianity is not, and has never been, the foundation of our government or legal system and those that believe it should be in any way do a disservice to not only our system of government, but to our religion as well.
    Forgive me for my omission of the word “some” in the sentence which you’ve featured. I meant to say some Christians have a desperate need, a need which is more evident in certain denominations than others, for whatever reason.
    As for your amusement at my setting myself up as an authority, you can be amused all you like. I own Federer’s book which you’re using as reference for your quotes and I am also a constitutional lawyer by profession. If you can show me an original citation of Madison referring specifically to the Ten Commandments, I will give you everything I own. It is often cited by the misguided members of the religious right, but it’s widely accepted that it is a false quote.


  2. Well, I guess you told me.  I guess I might as well toss Federer’s book in the rubbish heap since apparently it is full of inaccuracies.  (And if it is, why do you keep a copy on your shelf?)
    You AREN’T reading what I wrote, because I specifically stated that I didn’t believe that ALL the founding fathers subscribed to purely Christian belief.  You’ve chosen to ignore that, even in the response you’ve posted immediately above this where you capitalized the word STRICTLY, indicating that it’s your belief that I think they all were strictly Christian.
    And you’ve told me a great deal more by confessing to your profession as a constitutional lawyer.  Would you please tell me where exactly in the constitution a woman is guaranteed the right to murder her unborn child?  Would you also tell me how where in the constitution the phrase “separation of church and state” appears, since this phrase seems to be the most often quoted when liberals and non-believers are trying to prevent my child from praying in school?  It’s my understanding, however ignorant I may be since I am not a constitutional lawyer that the only thing guaranteed is that NO ONE RELIGION SHALL BE ESTABLISHED (like a “Church of the U.S.”), not that we are forever forbidden from mentioning God’s name for fear of offending someone who believes differently from us.
    I am sick and bloody tired of people like you twisting history to promote your liberal and anti-God beliefs.  I emphasized numerous times that I didn’t believe ALL the founding fathers were “Christian” in the sense that perhaps “Baptists” or “Methodists” are.  However, you cannot deny that in many of their writings they espoused Christian principles, and those writings indicate the principles and convictions that they held close to their hearts. 
    I suppose that you will tell me the quotes attributed to John Quincy Adams in the above-referenced volume are non-existent as well?  That Federer is a liar and made up the following quote supposedly uttered by JQA on July 4, 1821:
         The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.
         From the day of the Declaration…they (the American people) were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of The Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledge as the rules of their conduct.
    Please don’t make references to “our religion” as it is very obvious to me that your “beliefs” and mine have absolutely nothing in common.  The fact that you refer to “the misguided members of the religious right” shows you for the liberal, fence-sitting “Christian” you are.  The Bible says that we can’t be lukewarm – it’s all or nothing.  And I would rather be on the “misguided” sold out for Christ side, than the “why can’t we all just get along in our watered-down, it’s okay if it doesn’t make my self-esteem uncomfortable” version of the Bible side.
    It’s not my habit to block users, and I suppose you’re welcome to continue posting if you’d like, but I don’t really see any point in it.  This is a conservative, Christian blog and you’re not going to like much of what you read here and your comments (no matter how “validated” they may be by your profession) won’t change mine or many of my readers’ minds.  We know the truth.  We know what our nation’s foundation is.  We also know that there are many in today’s society doing their level best to tear that down by removing prayer from schools, the Ten Commandments from public places, and people’s freedom to express their faith openly without fear of repercussion.
    One last note — years ago I worked in a rare book and archives collection at a university.  I was told by the library director that I couldn’t read my Bible at my desk during my LUNCH break because it might offend someone walking by.  You can imagine (or maybe you can’t) how offended I was when not more than two months later an Indian medical student was allowed to display artistic renderings of his Hindu gods in the lobby of the library for a period of ONE MONTH.  Christianity is discriminated against in this country to a horrifying degree, and a great deal of the discrimination is made possible by “constitutional” lawyers who twist the “separation of church and state” phrase to mean that Christianity must defer to ALL other religions or lack of religions.  It won’t be long before we’ll be worshipping in secret like the Pilgrims did so many years ago in England and subsequently Holland. 
    I’m so angry right now I’m beginning to ramble.  It’s just I get so SICK of this.


  3. Wow. My intention was never to “tell you.” My intention was to engage in civil conversation about the complex foundation of our country, a desire that was sparked specifically by the following comment you made: “Madison still believed that the scriptures, particularly the Ten Commandments were the rule by which we should measure and sustain ourselves.” My point simply was, and remains, there is no proof to support your statement. On the contrary, all evidence leads rational people to conclude the opposite was the case.  More broadly, my point is not that you specifically are arguing that all the founding fathers were Christian; I do not think that you were trying to make the point that they all were Christian. The problem occurs when one starts to draw conclusions based upon the premise that some of the founding fathers were either Christian or shared Christian values. Even if they all belonged to the same specific Christian denomination, they still gave us a constitutionally-established separation of government and religion. Any religion. The oft-heard argument that the phrase “separation of church and state” doesn’t appear in the constitution is somewhat petty. The phrase originated with Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in Danbury, CT (I’m sure you know the history already though). “I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.” Jefferson’s interpretation of the amendment, as someone who was present at its inception, was that the first amendment built a wall of separation between church and state. Total separation. There really is not much gray area in that statement; the gray area lies of course in practical application. Should you have been allowed to read your Bible at a desk in what I’m assuming is a public university? I would say yes and I would also say that, all things considered, you probably would’ve had a very good civil rights violation case, especially if co-workers of other faiths were permitted to openly yet privately express their faith and you weren’t.
    Perhaps you’re right that your beliefs and my beliefs have absolutely nothing in common. Although I am a lifelong United Methodist, I do not believe that my personal moral or religious beliefs should be the basis for law nor do I believe that other people would be better off if they lived by my moral code. I do not feel the need to live in a nation where everybody is in complete and total agreement on matters of moral or ethical importance. I believe that your thoughts and beliefs are just as valid and important as mine. I feel that discussion can never be anything but positive and I welcome it. I’m sorry if I have offended you in any way. It was never my intent. I’ll leave you to your pleasant, harmonious blogging now.


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